Transcript: Episode 13 - Lee Craigie
Read the episode show notes with Lee Craigie
Aoife Glass 00:13
Welcome to the spindrift podcast where we tell different stories from the world of cycling. From pro athletes to community advocates and everyday adventurers to industry insiders. spindrift is all about different perspectives, underrepresented voices, tales that need to be told and experiences are worth sharing. This episode I'm joined by Lee Craigie, author, adventurer and athlete to talk about her new book, 'Different ways to win'. It's an autobiographical look at her adventures and experiences. If you enjoy this episode, please consider leaving us a little comment or review. Perhaps even sharing us with someone you know that would like this episode Joining me on the spindrift podcast for this episode is Lee Craigie, a woman of many talents - Lee, we've we've kind of listed a few, just a few of the things that you you could call yourself if you wanted to identify it that way. So we've got athlete, adventurer, author, ambassador, counting off all the A's there, you know, how would you describe yourself? Or do you prefer just to see how things evolve?
Lee Craigie 01:30
What an interesting exercise that would be to then just go through the whole of the alphabet and find something that discribes you from all of those different letters. That actually is really nice summary, all those different things. But I suppose first, first and foremost, I was a youth worker, an outdoor enthusiasts that wanted to encourage other people to experience outdoors. And then that from there, everything else sort of sprung forth. My recent career and the organization's I've set up, they're all kind of around this idea that we could all benefit from a little bit more connection to the places that we came from.
Aoife Glass 02:05
And I love that kind of circularity. And that's one of the things that sort of comes up again and again, in your book, which we're going to be focusing our conversation on today, which is 'Other ways to win: a competitive cyclists reflections on success' by Vertebrate Publishing, which is, as of this conversation about to drop and - having read nearly all of it, I've nearly finished it - definitely, you have to read it! It's, it's fascinating and really quite moving. It's interesting as well there because I think, you know, people are expecting that kind of title maybe from an someone who's like an adventure cyclist. Maybe what they're expecting is, you know, a step by step guide on like, how to fuel your adventure or train for like these mega experiences and like, succeed every time. And that's not what your book is about.
Lee Craigie 02:55
No, that's it's quite far from that isn't? Yes, it's it's definitely not a definitive guide on how to go faster on your bike. And yet, there are elements of that, but I think it might be a bit of a curveball to suggest that reading this book will make you go faster on a bike it may or may not. But it's definitely at the point of it. Then I would say,
Aoife Glass 03:16
How did the book come about? Where did where did the idea for it come from? And how did it sort of evolve into what it is now?
Lee Craigie 03:23
So I was approached by vertebrae publishing, whose strapline is 'inspiring adventure', and they were keen to get another voice out there into the creative literary world that wasn't the traditional sort of heroic male voice perhaps, and didn't necessarily have these step by step guides on how to do a thing. And I was I was all for that. But then when they mentioned the idea of a memoir, or autobiography, I baulked, I was really, I was really panicked. By... by the idea, I didn't like the idea at all about writing a chronology of my life. But then I went away and thought about it. And I read a few other memoirs of people. And I thought that there were other ways to do this. I've got a collection of stories that have already almost written, I could just pull all of those together and find a common thread that weaves through them, and tell the story of what's meant something in my life to date, in terms of these like standalone stories. So that's what I've tried to do. And it is roughly chronological, because there's lessons from all different parts of my life that have meant something really huge to me. But yeah, it's not a traditional and then I did this and then I did this, then I did this, I hope.
Aoife Glass 04:36
It's not; it's fascinating. But I guess before we get into sort of the subject matter and like your story as a cyclist and an adventurer, and as a youth work and a mountaineer and all the things that you've done, because you have written beautifully before, like you're not... this is not your first book, what it was about writing an autobiography that you struggled with, if you don't mind me asking, like what was the hesitancy there,
Lee Craigie 05:00
Yeah, I suppose it's that kind of mmmm, the possibility to lean towards narcissism. You know, this is all, this is all about me, this is my story. And now you will simply will read my story and that, I suppose when you're talking about an autobiography, you're talking about writing the story of your life, it comes with an assumption that people are interested, people are gonna want to read about your life, you know, my life has interest in meaning for me, and for the people that love you. But it's not necessarily going to be interesting and meaningful for other people that's up to them to decide. So there's a huge ask, it's, for someone to sit down and, and read my stories. I'm incredibly grateful to anybody that gives me the time to read my stories. And I just hope that they resonate with them with with the reader and bring out something personal to them. And that reader... it,s like looking at a piece of art, I hope. My words are now on the page, they've left me, they're out there. They're now the conduit between what I have to say and what other people have to feel. And hopefully, you know, some people might read these stories and think something completely different to I intended when I wrote them. And that's brilliant.
Aoife Glass 06:09
When you put anything out there, as you said, like you put it out with your own intent, or intention. And you know, what you think it means, but people are individuals, their own, have their have their own experiences, and they connect with stories in different ways, and different parts of different stories will will maybe spark something in someone else? Have you had that experience with any of the other things that you've put out? And what does that feel like from an author or an adventurers perspective, because you know, you put out adventures in lots of different formats as well, which we'll talk about,
Lee Craigie 06:37
it's so exciting when someone comes back to me with feedback from something that they've seen now, like some sort of film that we've been involved in making, or something that one of us has written, or something that someone said, like, quite often, I'll have given a talk that 10 years ago, and someone will come up to me and they'll they'll relay this part of my talk, I don't remember seeing that. And it probably wasn't even my intention, it was it was it was almost like off the cuff. And they'll have taken something from that. And it's taken them in that direction. And that is the coolest thing. It just just completely reinforces this idea that we're all just buzzing around each other looking for we all come with our own backgrounds, and narratives and prejudices and ideas and hopes and dreams and fantasies. And all we're doing is buzzing around each other looking for bits of inspiration, that means something to us. And then we take that and we make it ours. And that's the beauty, I think of writing and music and art and less I think visuals, less TV, I think that feeds you too much. But even a podcast, even this is very intimate, people are listening, it's coming straight into yours. And you're left with your own emotions. And... and I think there's something about all those art forms I've just talked about that carve out space for people to consider what that means to them what that touches in them, or what that sparks in them. Or maybe it doesn't at all, and you have to just put it down and move on to something else. But when it does do that, like I'm sure you've had that experience as well, when you've heard a piece of music or you've read something that really resonates, then it can be totally shapeshifting and take you off in a completely different course. And it's exciting. It's so exciting that we have that we have the potential for that effect on each other,
Aoife Glass 08:21
isn't it and it's there's something magical about about having that, that possibility of connecting with people in that way and then sparking something for them that might take them on a new trajectory or allows them to discover something new about themselves that they didn't know. I mean, that's one of the things that I love about growing older is that I'm learning more about myself all the time, and you peel back another layer of yourself. And it's often through those connections and conversations and pieces of music or something that you read or listen to and you learn something else about yourself through that. It's just it's an amazing way of connecting with people. And I think one of the things that I love about cycling, is the stories in and around cycling of the people and their experiences and their connections, I think that probably connects more with me individually. And I think it's one of the reasons that I love this book. Because yes, you talk about racing. Yes, it talks about big adventures and the challenges that you face within it. But ultimately, it's about your experiences and the people that you've met and what that's felt like and it's the variety in your book is fascinating. You know, I sort of was aware of you through the adventure syndicates. And it's really fascinating to learn more about your use getting into riding and then the racing I knew you'd done that but sort of how that came about but then how it's evolved as well in such diverse ways. Like everything from like incredible endurance races to experiences on cargo bikes tag teaming across Europe, this so broad and so different. But there is that thread, as you said that sort of takes you through through the wall. Would you mind if we kind of went back then to the beginning, I guess of your story and how you got into bikes and Do you remember when you first felt that spark of there's something about riding a bike and what that gave you and what that meant to you? And has that changed over time?
Lee Craigie 10:11
I remember it. So clearly, I was a little bit obsessed with the first bike I ever had. They didn't have stabilisers on it, it was a little red BMX. And I was just, I felt like I was missing a limb, if it wasn't on it, like I got to a stage, I must have been seven, eight, that was about the time that it fitted me. I just remember just always wanting to be on it. It was just, it was my best friend and mobility IID it was my emancipation, it was my way of learning about my body, and my neighbourhood. And it was my first sort of real idea that I could self propelled, you know that I could do this myself really, really cool. But that was, I think the thing that hooked me was how I felt when I was in control when I had mastery of this machine. So I think that was probably my first experience of the state that we all are many of us strive for the state of flow, where you're not thinking anymore about emotion, it just becomes second nature. So it's not like your brain is telling your hands or your feet to do something. It's as though it's a full body immersion experience. And your body just knows what to do. And it's effortless. And I just, I just love that feeling. And Nick and I could be out from dawn till dusk because I was enjoying that feeling. And it never felt like training. It never felt like hard work. It was just like, if I was sitting still inside as like, something's wrong. What is it? Oh, yeah, I've gotta be outside. I'll be on that bike. So that that was where it started from. And I still hanker after that feeling that I got as a little kid at that age, and makes me long for that experience for all kids.
Aoife Glass 11:58
Yeah, it is something magical. Like I very clearly remember the first time I managed to ride a bike without stabilisers on, it's such a powerful experience. And then later on, for me, it sort of was because I got into, I guess, mountain biking and cycling much later on in life, compared to a lot of people anyway, particularly in the bike world. And it sort of that's for me, when it started to connecting up with my love of being outdoors. That's another thing that sort of runs very strongly through your book is that kind of intense connection with being outdoors and the physicality of it and and that connection with the outdoors was that connection between all that and cycling from an early age or did that come later for you.
Lee Craigie 12:41
So it did, it started to come with that little red BMX, it meant that he could access a piece of reserve really close to my house. And those two things were were co joined. And then later, I realised I could access Much, much Wilder space at sort of 14 or 15. Again, that was that was by bike. And then once I realised I could do that by bike, I parked it actually apart the bike for quite a long time. And that was when I realised that I could moving more slowly and in wild places and challenging myself in claiming terms. mountaineering, technical mountaineering, and rock climbing, and just moving through the mountains on foot, actually gave me that same feeling of of joy, especially if it was self supported in the mountains on foot. And, and it was at a slower pace. And it was just, it was as exciting. And so I didn't actually go back to the bike until really, I was in my early 20s, sort of 2425. And I didn't race until I was 26. So I also got into it seriously much later. And I always ridden a bike. But it wasn't a life that was much older. But it has always been a tool to access the mind.
Aoife Glass 13:52
So what prompted that return then to picking up the bike for, I guess, adventure adventure purposes or race purposes? Like, why did you go back to the bike,
Lee Craigie 14:02
so I moved back north to the highlands. So I lived in the highlands when I worked for a rebound first when I first left university, and then I was travelling and down in the central belt. And then when my partner and I moved to Inverness, like 1617 years ago, we were suddenly the proximity to the hills was was right there. But a bike was the obvious way to get into them. And so I didn't really realise it, but just by using my bike to get into the hills, and actually doing some quite full on stuff when I was in the hills quite often carrying the bike made me really strong. I felt really competent and able. And it was it was a really lovely feeling. But it was totally by mistake. They started racing. It was just a local race. They was encouraged to enter. It didn't have any expectations for myself at all just entered it and I want to and then I thought all right, well, okay, well, let's see what happens next. And then it honestly was just that it wasn't planned. It wasn't thought through It was just, I just got caught on a conveyor where I was just getting better. While I was getting better, it was very difficult to get off that Configure. So again, the bike had to be parked. I was using it all the time. But suddenly I was using it to train and race, I wasn't using it to get into the mountains anymore. And that was a sacrifice. And I think in the book, it does come back full circle where where the bike becomes my tool for joy. Again,
Aoife Glass 15:24
I love that like bike as a tool for joy. And that that comes through. So, so much. And I think that's definitely going to hopefully connect with a lot of people sort of talking about the racing. And that was, that was quite an interesting period of time. I think. There's also something maybe it was to do with like when I first got into mountain biking, and it felt like there was at least maybe just in my experience of like, what I was seeing or hearing or where I was geographically that the thing to do when you got into mountain biking was to try racing, and I am terrible at racing. It's just not, you know, I love watching and following racing really enjoy that. Mentally. It's just not my thing, as I've talked about many times before, but it sort of felt like that was a thing that you did. And few you are obviously naturally gifted nap super fit, like you have the skills, the stamina, the fitness, you talk about that you sort of kind of got on this conveyor belt because you were good at it. And then it was hard to get off. Could you talk a little bit more about that? Was it was it because you felt like you had an opportunity? So you should use that opportunity? Or was you know what was going on with that?
Lee Craigie 16:31
Yeah. I still think about this quite a lot. Actually. What was the moment when they thought, right? This is what I want to do as a career. There wasn't that moment, there wasn't that defining moment. It just, they all kind of merged into each other. Or I realised actually, my whole life is now revolving around this and being paid to do this. I've got sponsorship and racing every weekend, everything is about going faster. And it did happen incrementally. And I think the reason that I stayed on the conveyor was because I was curious. So there was a couple of things. I love the feeling of having raced, I love the feeling of having gone really hard. And like my body had been pushed to its edges. You know, there was a neurological rebalancing, there was a definite chemical addiction to that feeling. There was a social addiction, you know, suddenly I was part of this thing that was happening, I got scooped up. And I was given training plans, which helps structure my life, which was also quite appealing. And little by little that just all kind of felt like well, this is sort of just the direction that I'm going in. And I remained curious, because I always felt like I could go faster. And it wasn't like I want I wanted to be a world champion and needed to be the best. It was just, I was just always curious about, okay, well, I feel like I've improved a lot last year, when do I can do this year. And I wonder what would happen if I did this differently. Or if I thought about this, it was just one big experiment. And it was so addictive. It was so interesting, you know, psychologically interesting, as learning so much. And I and physically, I just really liked it physically, I really enjoyed that excuse to ride my bike every day, stead of going to an office.
Aoife Glass 18:15
I mean, when you put it like that, that does sound pretty good. Well, yeah,
Lee Craigie 18:17
well, you're not gonna, you're not gonna complain, are you?
Aoife Glass 18:22
And what was it like being on those programmes, because people talk about retrospectively and I don't know if this is what it was like, then there was a, you know, a lot of pressure on on athletes, particularly with regards to things like body weight and physique, and sort of targets and things like that. Did you? Did you feel that kind of pressure? And how did you manage that if you did,
Lee Craigie 18:44
so in cross country, mountain bike racing, there is a real performance game to be had for being light and strong. So your body weight, your percentage, fat did matter. But I don't think it mattered quite as much as we were told that it mattered. I think there was a lot of fear, and depression and anxiety that our coaches were feeling. And they didn't fully understand. I think it's fair to say that they didn't fully understand the female physiology. At the time. This was a few years ago, I'm sure things have changed quite a lot since. But I felt like when I was at my peak of racing, what I was being asked to do was balance on a knife edge between being very thin and fast, but also being unhealthy. So and it didn't work like 30% of the time, I would get to a start lane, and I would be on forum, and I would have a good strength to weight ratio, and I would do well. But most of the time, it was just a bit miserable. And it would get sick because my natural body weight was heavier than they were asking. And if I was happier, and I was healthy, then overall my performance was better. And I really feel quite strongly that I was being forced into behaving in a certain way that caused more performance, reduce Think stress than was necessarily bad. I mean, I don't know you, we put elite sports people on a pedestal, and we, and we think they're incredible. They're brave and strong and determined, and all these amazing things that our children should be. But when you break it down, it's really not very healthy. What we do in order to be as good as that, and not just physiologically, but emotionally. They put ourselves in start lanes to beat other people. What does that say to our children? One person wins and everybody else loses, you know, it's when you break it down. It's sort of a funny messaging to be aspiring to. And when that messaging from the race field starts to spill out into everyday life, it stands in really sharp contrast, isn't it? You just say no, of course, you don't want your children to behave like this in everyday life. So then why are we asking them to behave like that on a racecourse? It's just interesting to me, because I'm not anti racing. It taught me so much and helped me compartmentalise all sorts of complicated animal feelings of wanting to go fast and wanting to do well and wanting to be other people wanting to be the best. This is real stuff. But it's just really important. I think that we keep it in check, and that we have balanced that we don't balance that entire self worth on it, that if we have a boundary so we can laugh, or if someone else does, it's not a judgement on their character. It's just Well, that's a shame, isn't it? Let's keep it in context, nobody died. But that's hard when it's your whole life.
Aoife Glass 21:29
It is interesting that we that competition seems to be the way you judge things rather than and maybe it's to do with like coverage as well like how we talk about sports as well. Like maybe this comes back to your comment about being a different voice and telling a slightly different story and perspective on sport, inverted commas, an adventure that isn't necessarily about this one person against everything conquering a thing, and is maybe more about participation, experience, connection, emotion feeling. And, you know, I guess maybe as well, some of the things we don't maybe like to talk about, but maybe should also value ignores you things like ambition, or loneliness or grief or, you know, responsibility as well. And those being valuable things that you can get from doing something that you enjoy outdoors, that that doesn't necessarily have to be winning good losing pads. And that's it. There are so many different ways we can kind of experience things. And I think it's it's interesting that we don't seem to talk well, we didn't use to talk about these stories more, I'm hoping that these are the kinds of stories that you have more opportunities to hear about, and people have more opportunities to tell these days. Would you agree? Yeah,
Lee Craigie 22:44
I would agree, I do feel a shift. And I don't think just as in a sporting context, I think in my book, and in my life, I use sport as a metaphor for this, this change, or this, this shift away from this conquering hero model to the connection and the collaboration and the key and the fairness. But I think what I also think is really important is that we don't we don't other these two different ways of being like everything that you just said, there can also be a performance enhancer, you know, if you're talking about going fast on a bike, let's stick to that as a as an example, then actually backing off a little bit, being patient, being kind to yourself, self soothing, breathing, looking up, looking around you, those things will make you go faster, and we're so hell bent on on the opposite. You know, we're still hell bent on are you feeling bad thoughts? Are you struggling physically Shut up, legs, put it to one side, keep going as hard as you can. And there are other ways to manage that discomfort in life. And I don't know I'm flipping flitting away from the racing idea. Maybe we need to be reframing what successful looks like and what it is that we're trying to, to achieve in our politics, in our business in our economy. I mean, for goodness sake, this stuff is not solely the domain of sport to be looking at looking at these old traditional models of winning and losing. There's lots of different things that we can learn in all walks of life from thinking about success, and winning in a different way.
Aoife Glass 24:22
Sport like anything else is it's a microcosm. It's part of society. It's part of life, it's part of our world. And therefore it's sort of subjected to the same pros and cons and biases and obstacles and everything else as everything else is. So it's yeah, it's it's interesting, going back to the title of your book, then because if you talk about it as other ways to win, would you say that maybe that's kind of what you're conveying in this book is kind of other ways you've discovered to win or to succeed or how succeed success has changed for you or the definition of success has changed for you over the course of your life.
Lee Craigie 24:59
I really hope but that is what comes out of my writing that I've been exploring what it is that we place value on, not just in sporting terms, but in the wider world, and looking at ways that I can live a life that actually makes me happy, and makes the people around me happy and contributes to a healthy community in a sustainable environment. I do so do some work with the Scottish Government, as the ambassador for active travel. So here's a here's maybe a different example, from a racing a racing example, we've got a possibility to change how fear our societies are, if we shine a spotlight on how unfair it is that some of us can afford to drive places, and therefore clog up our streets with with fuel emissions, and those very streets or the streets that people that can't afford cars are breathing in and all of this air pollution. So we've got an opportunity to shift away from this idea of cars dominating money, the economy driving and moving towards a well being economy moving towards protecting the health and the happiness of our communities, our population, and the sustainability of environment first, and then from that economy won't suffer. So this is the same, this is the same idea your performance might not suffer. If you are patient and caned. And you think in social justice terms, it's not a soft skill versus hard skill. It's not a people with money versus people without money. It's not people with Sporting aspiration people without this is about just generally deciding how it is that you want to be in the world. And then seeing that good things will come from that we don't need to be so goal focused, we can focus on the process. And in focusing on the process, we can be happy while we're achieving a goal. So I guess that is sort of what I'm trying to get at in this book took me a long time to figure it out that I can enjoy the process of becoming faster on the bike. And then actually, the goal doesn't matter that much, much if you enjoy the process. So
Aoife Glass 27:06
as it relates to like you specifically mentioned, I think at one point in the book that you've done really well, you'd think you've got the British national champs and then you were racing world cups, and then you had a performance that you weren't happy with, you just didn't feel comfortable. Like maybe like you'd lost the love a little bit in where you were. And then you have this this bike packing trip. I think if I've gleaned this correctly, it was your first self supported bike packing trip. And even that evolved as you went on it like you started off, like, we're gonna go from A to B and then you're like, Oh, this is a really nice village, let's just like detour around all these beautiful places and have these experiences. And then you come back and because you feel happy. You know, maybe it's, you know, more complicated than that. But did that play a part in then winning, and then you know, that there's sort of the importance of of like, happiness, and that being intrinsically valuable in in and of itself, like money in itself doesn't make me happy. It's what money could do or could mean for me. And ultimately, happiness is really kind of what I would like to be measuring that against. So that sounds like the ultimate goal.
Lee Craigie 28:11
Just describe the well being economy beautifully there. And that is exactly what it was, you hit the nail on the head. Yes, I respect it because it was happier. It was as simple as that the pressure was off, I felt happy. I just felt like I'd come back into my body a bit. And I was doing what I wanted to do, because I loved it. And I was just reminded of the reason that I ride a bike. And it was as simple as that. And I think we do quite often overthink things, overcomplicate things, and that also strips the happiness out of something, doesn't it, just shaking it all down to one bike, two bags. And me if you've got one who's willing to come with you, and just going out and just being open to experiences just not being too focused, just just following your nose a little bit exploring, having time to talk to people and grow and learn and adapt and practice flexibility and all that good stuff.
Aoife Glass 29:10
Those are all things that I definitely need to get better at. And I don't know as well if it's something to do with the fact that personally, before I got into the bike industry knew about stuff, I just do things I didn't really think about like, is this a long way? Or do I have the right kit? And then I think I kind of got a bit almost like swallowed the Kool Aid a little bit. And I was like, Oh, I can't possibly go on this trip because I don't have exactly the right bag for it. And I feel like I'm weaning myself off that now. But because apart from anything else, another big smell of fistrick is because there's something about hearing about someone who is clearly a very experienced person when it comes to sort of long events, huge rides and endurance events. Not always, please don't take this the wrong way. But not always getting it right. But then it's still okay. A that then maybe leads you off in the direction of another adventure or experience that maybe is possibly even cooler than the one you had originally planned.
Lee Craigie 30:09
Absolutely. And I am not at all offended by that the times that has gone wrong, have been the most rewarding and rich times without without exception. And it's always been tricky just to get your head around initially and to let go of what you thought something was going to be, or to let go of that feeling of having messed up or not done well enough for field. Once all that's gone. Brilliant. Yeah, just go go with the new plan. And without exception, when I've forgotten something, or I've taken the wrong route, or something's happened is out of my control. That's when it's been its most rich.
Aoife Glass 30:47
You know, the list of things that you've done is pretty epic. So we've got like things like the tour divide Silk Roads, there Highland trail in a wide variety of different places meeting an incredible range of different people. Will you talk a lot about like the physicality of it, as well as like, what goes through your head, like the mental side of it, and the connections that you form? For you? What is it about? If it's possible to sum this up? Because you've got a whole book worth of explaining this? What it is about doing a big trip or an adventure that that sort of speaks to you? What what do you get from it, and that makes you keep wanting to come back and do what for a lot of people sounds like a really challenging hard thing to do.
Lee Craigie 31:33
I think I mean, for for me, too, it is hard and challenging. That's the reason that, that I suppose I put myself into these into these positions, because it's so easy to live a life, where you're not challenged, and you you live within a comfort zone, and within any echo chamber of people that think the same way as you do. But I just wonder, I wonder where the growth is, I suppose when I'm not, when I'm not out there, slightly out of my comfort zone and grappling with what that means. And what I learned about myself and about the places that I'm moving through and about other people. That's when that's when I learned the most is uncomfortable to begin with. But it doesn't end uncomfortably. So that and that's why it's so hard to get out the door and to do these things. Because you're leaving your house, you're leaving your comforts, you're leaving everything that you know. And no matter how well you prepare, you're going into the unknown. That's the definition of an adventure with an unknown outcome. And we do that because because we're curious. And we want we want a little bit of a bit unknown, we need to we need to be slightly uncomfortable, slightly on our tools in order to engage all those bits of our brains and our bodies that are just going dormant because everything is so at the touch of a button. You can get anything you want, anytime of the day. And you can look up information online, wherever you are, and, and it's amazing. But it also dulls the senses. And doing something like that brings me back into my body and keeps things simple. And reminds me actually what it is that makes me a human being on the planet, surrounded by other human beings with a wild and fascinating world that needs to be explored and looked after. So for all those reasons, I guess I keep putting myself out there, it definitely isn't the easiest thing to do. Always.
Aoife Glass 33:41
I mean, I love that that sort of curiosity being the driver. And I think one of the other things that you mentioned in your book is that you know, when you're, and I'm totally probably paraphrasing this incorrectly, but when you're little days feel really long. And that is because everything is new, and you're discovering things all the time. And there's lots of new experiences. And then maybe as we get older, we get into a groove and everything is you have to do the same things over and over again. So like, you know, what makes yesterday different to today different to tomorrow. But then when you start doing things and you get that curiosity, time seems to stretch out again, if you are going to give advice to someone who's like tempted to do something, but is maybe a little bit anxious about it. What would you say to them?
Lee Craigie 34:26
I always struggle with the question if you were to give advice to someone because well, first of all, I would never give advice to somebody unless they are I try not to ever give advice to them unless they specifically asked me for something and then I would take into account their background and what they wanted to get out of that. And I'd have to do a lot of listening first, I think but let's assume that they read that piece of my book, which really, really meant a lot to me as well if I'm glad that you I'm glad you picked up on that. But it's this idea that when we're kids, the days are so long Learning because everything is new. We're constantly being bombarded with new stuff. We're learning all the time, that space between, you know, I think it was George Eliot and Mill on the Floss; 'space from summer to summer seems measureless'. That idea. And we forget that, don't we, as we get older, it's just like the space from summer to summer that was just like a minute ago. And what a shame, what a waste. My friend calls it the velvet rut, to be in the velvet, right is very comfortable in there, but... it is a rut. And I think if somebody were to ask my advice, then let's assume that they feel stuck in a velvet rut, and that they're not happy anymore of being in that velvet rut, and that they would like to do something different. But it's scary. It's really scary to step away from all the stuff that makes you comfortable. And so I would suggest that they don't go all in late, you don't need to go to Kyrgyzstan and ride the Silk Road to put yourself out of your comfort zone. You can take it much, much smaller steps than that. But know that you could do that stuff like nothing is impossible. Everything is possible. And it's just you need to decide what your first step is going to be. And don't look around and compare yourself to anybody else. You decide what your first step you're pushing out of your comfort zone is going to be. And do that and see how it feels. And if you like that feeling, if it doesn't freak you out too much, then take the next step and take the next step and take the next step. Because yeah, there's there's we only get one life, don't we be ever such a shame to not live it.
Aoife Glass 36:31
So true. That's such a good way of putting it I like that it feels so achievable. Like your first step, because every person step will be different, that will look different, that will feel different, it'll be a big step might be a little step might be just a toe outside of your front door. But you know, you're still taking that step and evaluating where you go from from Next, if you want to go further, or maybe just like sticking your toe out the front door. That's totally fine as well. Another thing that you that's that's always been like a feature I think of of the the adventures that you've been on the adventure syndicate specifically as well is that sort of storytelling aspect of it. So sharing the adventure or sharing the story of the adventurer, the people in the adventures, and in quite a range of different ways. Is that something that What did you set out to share those adventures? Is that part of your original adventure plan, as it were? Or is that something that you know, people expect? If you've had an adventure, you should share your adventure or something around that?
Lee Craigie 37:29
What a brilliant question. That is such a good question. Because the Adventure Syndicate is first and foremost a storytelling platform. We're a bunch of people that happen to be women that do quite full on things by bite, sometimes not sometimes little things. But it's the telling of that story in an accessible way that encourages other people to want to do that stuff. That is the point. But there is something so valuable about going out there and not telling that story about leaving your phone behind. And not thinking in terms of how this experience that I'm having will be seen through a third party's eyes, there needs to be a balance in there. And I sort of feel a little bit like sometimes we've built a road for our own back. Because it's lovely when we put these stories out there and people come to us and say are you know, you'll never guess as a result of reading that or seeing that we've done this. And that just makes my heart sing. But it does change the adventure for us if we're thinking in storytelling terms while we're doing the thing. So the balance for me now is to do the thing, to have the adventure in as protected away as I can. And it'd be authentic, it'd be my experience my adventure. And then after that, think about how to put that out into the world. But that that part is consolidated in me, it's already been my experience. It's it's hard meaning to me, I've not been distracted. My head's not been or how will this look on Instagram, all of that's gone. Yeah, there's been some photos taken. There's even been some voice notes recorded, but it's not dominated. And then it's afterwards that you think about how to put that out into the world. And it's still a balanced, it's still just sort of trying to tussle with it. And then sometimes just never doing anything at all just going out on your own, even not with another person, let alone with a camera. And just and just being still in silent and figuring out for yourself.
Aoife Glass 39:29
I love stories. I love sharing stories. I love reading stories, the more different the better. Like I love hearing other people's perspectives. There's definitely a lot of pressure now as well that an adventure is only worth half having if you are going to share it. And then therefore something kind of conversely quite revolutionary, about intentionally going out with no intention of sharing a story. It feels like maybe that's just me, and because of my sort of the work that I've done in journalism, and I love that idea and I can't lie It makes me feel a bit anxious, but also quite excited like to try and wean myself off trying to share everything. It's interesting that that's become such a big part of like when we need different stories. But does everything have to be a story?
Lee Craigie 40:16
Isn't it interesting, because the same things happened for me. I grew up, you know, I'm 44. And I grew up in a world where this just didn't exist. And the quality of my experience has changed, like my brain has changed as a result of thinking through a storytelling and the fast storytelling. I'm talking about pictures on Instagram and film in particular, those things that they're fast ways to churn content out, but really forcing yourself to sit and think and sit with that discomfort of being alone, being there on your own with something and really observe the different quality in that experience to if you're thinking about relating it to something to somebody else, it's a completely different thing. And so valuable, I think, if you're then going to go on to tell an authentic story, you need that pause. Otherwise, the story is a bit boring. It doesn't have any of you in it. It's just, it's just words and noise. But if you've had an experience first, then you've got more to see, I think, you know, if you've, if it's felt meaningful to you, if you felt connected with that place, and that time yourself, then then it will work as a story. And if you haven't felt that, and no, I don't get much out of reading posts like that, or articles like that, or watching films that are just all about the hype. I think it's got to have a little bit more to it than that.
Aoife Glass 41:33
Yeah, gotta have some heart in there. No, you're right. And I think maybe it's the difference between if you're always thinking through that lens, you are literally maybe one step removed from what's going on, rather than, than actually the participant, you're almost like the observer to the adventure itself. In the early part of your book, you talk about working with young students, and excluded pupils, or pupils on students on referral, and that the connection that you are able to have with them and the positive impact, the opportunity of doing something like going for a bike ride, and maybe the experiences around that, and what that can tell you about yourself or what you can learn as an individual about yourself and what you're capable of. And that sort of comes through full circle again, then with some of the other things that you're now working with, as an ambassador for active travel in Scotland, for example. So that sort of, I guess, social justice element, has that always been part of something that's motivated you within your career, your life and cycling?
Lee Craigie 42:32
Yes. In cycling? No. I think in racing, I lost sight of that for quite a long time, there were two worlds that existed side by side for a long time, while I was still working with these boys that had been excluded from school, and I was racing. But there were two very different parts of me that weren't really meeting in the middle. But everything else that I've done working as an outdoor instructor, working as a school counsellor, and in this Ambassador role, and the Adventure Syndicate, it has been, it has been driven by this hope that I can somehow do my little bit to reduce social inequality because I think that sort of sits at the heart of of everything that's wrong, really, if if we can focus in on that as a lever, if everything that we do everything that we see every decision that we make comes through that that prism of of social justice, then we just make all the right decisions we're just not we're not we're not horrible to each other. We don't we don't take more than we need. We don't need to earn the big bucks. We don't need to drive everywhere we have time for people we can look them in the eye when we have a conversation we value the important stuff I think if we look at the world through this lens, and everything else just then falls into place or climate emergency would disappear if we had a focus on if all our decisions were on social justice our health inequalities would would disappear, depression anxiety that would that would evaporate you know, and we can't do that that's not what's going to happen overnight. But we can live our lives in a way that helps that along so I guess that's why it motivates me
Aoife Glass 44:12
There is so much inequality out there and there are things that could could be done if we made different decisions for different reasons with regards to then bikes and social equality. How do you see those two connecting because one of the great things about cycling is this it can be so many things to so many people; it's like a form of transport, it can be used as the trail therapy that's happening with what Developing Mountain Biking in Scotland (DMBinS) have run their their pilot on that, it's a sport if you want, it's physical activity.
Lee Craigie 44:40
So I suppose if you look historically at how bikes have fitted into the picture, they came about as a as a levelling up to you know, suddenly they offered social mobility to a class of people that couldn't afford motorcars, and it meant that people, especially women could move out of their very narrow confines of society and understand and grow and learn from from different types of people. And it meant access to green space was suddenly possible. It meant that the gene pool could could widen, it meant that people could autonomise their own transport and for lots of different reasons, that's a great thing. And when we consider those are the roots of the bicycle to know when we are living in a world that is all car dominated. It's so just overrun with these polluting things that are taking away our capacity to think and feel and be free and green space and allow others that that same opportunity. And it's, you know, really threatening biodiversity and climate emergency, when we consider where we've come to. And we see where a bicycle can slot into that to be part of the solution, the bicycle is not going to reverse climate change. But it can be a really powerful part of a solution. If we look at cities like Amsterdam and Copenhagen, where the pedestrianised their town centres, not only have they reduce their carbon emissions, but they're just safe, calm, pleasant places for people to breathe, and be and in community, those places have been built for people and for connection to nature and each other. And if we're not going to prioritise that and not see that the bike can enable those sorts of spaces and our built up towns and centres, then we're really missing a trick and think we need to invest more in the bicycle invest more in places that we can re bike safely separately from from traffic and be bold, they those decision makers, they know that economic, the health and environmental benefits that can come from this, be bold and just do it. Because that is for in countries all over the world have already done it. No one saying oh, we shouldn't have done that. Everyone's seen. This is amazing. Thank goodness, we did this. And it did. And I think it is really important to see that bikes are just a part of that solution walking, it just building places that people can walk that's almost more important. Those tightness, those short journeys that are killing us in the planet, we need to be thinking about them in a different way.
Aoife Glass 47:16
Yeah, if it was safer, and more convenient to get places. And if a lot of infrastructure is already there, it's just kind of changing attitudes and changing maybe usage and construct new places to live so that you're not like stuck in a house away from anywhere that you need to get to that you can walk to the shops to get your milk makes a huge difference. And then you've also kind of you get, I guess more community around that as well, because people aren't just like in their house and then in their car. And then inside something else, people are hopefully outside and sort of mingling more and connecting with nature, whatever form that takes, whether it's just like trees and your local street through to, to sort of, you know, local parkland, or being able to get out into the forest, if you if you're lucky enough to have that near you.
Lee Craigie 48:02
Absolutely, you've hit the nail on the head there. And I think if I could do one thing, if I was given the power to do one thing, that would be to close off the kilometre around every school in the UK to cars, so that everybody had to take that pause in the morning and in the evening to get to and from school, or to get their kids to from school, or hang out with just transform the way we felt. And you know, would give us so much more energy and focus for our day ahead.
Aoife Glass 48:31
One of the nicest little videos I saw from Kendal [Mountain Festival] I think it was last year, the year before, was a local school that had set up a little bicycle train. And like they've you know, had like loads of parents volunteering to like stop the cars and they had like a special switch, so they could like make the traffic lights hold for them. And it was just so lovely. Yeah, I'd love that, especially kids on bikes, going back to what we're talking about the right at the start. It's that like when you have that experience on a bicycle, and you know, and again, bikes aren't cheap, and there's an inequality and in which kids get to have bikes to have that experience and whether they're in a safe environment where they can even ride them that's you know that there's an opportunity there to have such a big impact on people's lives for the better improve their well being improve all aspects of their well being from mental and physical health to opportunities. It's yeah, I mean surely surely it's a no brainer. Lee what's next for you? I mean, you've got a lot happenings either in your role as ambassador or in your passion as a cyclist. What's on the on the near horizon for you now?
Lee Craigie 49:36
Well, on the really immediate horizon is my term as Ambassador for a Active Travel is coming to an end. So that is actually really great. It's, I've done, I've done everything that I can do in that space. I don't think that working out At a strategic policy level is ever going to bring me joy. There's just too much process that gets in the way of progress. And it's, it's just sucking the life out of me. So well, it's super important. I'm so glad that there's civil servants out there doing this job. And we've got good ministers, especially the Scottish Government, fighting this fight. I think I can do more by returning to the third sector and working again, grassroots with people that are out there making that change. I sort of feel like I've done my stint there. So I don't know what I'm going to do next, I'm going to pause, the adventure syndicate continues. And I will always ride bikes, but I don't know, I think I might need to do something that slows me down and brings me back into my body as I talked about before. So growing vegetables, making baskets, going back to wood, work, joinery, something that's just a practical and tangible and means that my feet on the ground and my hands are in the soil, please, for a while, at least,
Aoife Glass 51:00
That sounds amazing. That sounds like a wonderful way to reconnect. And going back to the third sector you take with you, of course, all that knowledge of how all of that stuff works. And knowledge is power when it comes to making those kinds of changes. Knowing the right people to talk to, the process to go through, has has a lot of benefits as well. Lee, thank you so much for talking to me today. I could have asked you questions for days, but but we should leave some content for people to read in the book.
Lee Craigie 51:28
I think it's probably wise. So the book is out. And it's also an Audible, it's I recorded it myself in audio form if you want to listen to it while you're on your bike.
Aoife Glass 51:40
That sounds like a wonderful idea. And Lee, if people want to sort of keep up with what you're up to, in terms of things like social media websites, what's the how can people keep track of what you're up to?
Lee Craigie 51:50
Well, I won't post it all. But there's some... yeah, we're pretty active. Both my own social media accounts, Lee Craigie, and the Adventure Syndicate or we try to be as active as we can muster while also keeping the important stuff back for ourselves. So you can follow us there. And we are going to be running events and gatherings in as usual in 2024. And hope to actually meet some real life connections and not just online ones. So hopefully we'll see some people there.
Aoife Glass 52:22
Fantastically, thank you very much. I'll put the links to those in the show notes as well. And that for now. Happy adventuring. Happy cycling, Happy gardening. Happy woodworking, and I look forward to to catching up with you, hopefully in person in the future.
Lee Craigie 52:36
Oh, that'd be nice. Thanks. Lovely to see you.
Aoife Glass 52:44
Thanks for listening to the Spindrift Podcast. I've been Aoife Glass, your host for this episode. If you'd like to keep in touch Spindrift has a website. So go on that for the show notes where I'll be putting all the links that Lee has mentioned, including a link for where you can find both the audio book and the book itself. I highly recommend getting your hands on a copy. It's both inspirational and moving and made me laugh in places and raise a tear in others. Spindrift, also on Instagram at spindrift underscore podcast. And as I mentioned at the beginning, if you did like this episode and would like to give us a hand, then any ratings or comments or reviews that you can pop up will really help us reach a wider audience. And if you really enjoy the episode and you know someone that you think might like spindrift, please do let them know about us. We would love to reach more people and share more stories. Thanks for listening